Would you cut these open to see inside?

[azdave]

Several years ago I found the Spencer cartridge case (on right) that has a fired 44 Henry cartridge case forced inside of it, and then the case mouth slightly mashed down. It had to have been forced/pounded because of the tight dimensions. It was found at a Army encampment area here in AZ that guarded a new toll road very shortly after the Civil War. Lots of Henry & Spencer casings as well as lots GSB's came from this spot.
I chalked it up to just bored soldiers with lots of down time to fill around camp at night.

Last week, I found the one on left, a Winchester big bore lever cartridge case that also has a fired 44 Henry cartridge case forced down inside about 1/2" below the case mouth....and they didn't deform the mouth. Not as tight a fit, but it couldn't be removed without destroying it. This came from a site that was active in the 1880's.

Nothing "rattles" or moves that I can tell when shaking it,so if anything is inside, it is tight/packed in there. These come from opposite ends of the state...the first, NW AZ....last weeks, So. AZ.

Here's the kicker.....Years ago a guy came across 2 old, full length BRASS shotgun shells....a 10 ga. with a 12 ga. inside.....it was full of gold nuggets. According to this guy, who posted pics on the Havasu Gold Seekers site, it was a common method for prospectors to carry their little stash.
This was found in the same region as my first one, and since then I held back destroying it, telling myself it was a boredom thing....nothings in it.
But this second one seems a bit heavier than it should be. So now its on my mind again.

It should be mentioned that finding cartridges and military relics from the 1800's IS my passion.....I would rather find a Spencer "drop" than any old coins........so destroying them for nothing would bug me. I have found 1860's era percussion cap containers that are corroded closed, but have something "rattling" around inside. I'm here to say no matter how gentle you try to be, they're damaged by the time you get the lid off to find a pebble
So, would you cut them (especially the recent find) open, or leave it alone for the unique item it is.....especially knowing the perspective I have for these items?

 

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[Pointman]

I would take a caliper and measure the depth from the top of the bullet to the lip of the case. Subtract this number from what the length should be for the bullet and this difference should give you a measurement of how deep the bullet is forced into the case (considering that the primer is flat). If it indicates that the bullet is all the way down to the primer or the difference is negligible, it probably wouldn't be worth destroying the case especially if it means something to you.

 

[azdave]

I would take a caliper and measure the depth from the top of the bullet to the lip of the case. Subtract this number from what the length should be for the bullet and this difference should give you a measurement of how deep the bullet is forced into the case (considering that the primer is flat). If it indicates that the bullet is all the way down to the primer or the difference is negligible, it probably wouldn't be worth destroying the case especially if it means something to you.

The 44 rimfire cartridge inside the larger one has been fired........so there is no bullet. It is an empty casing inside an empty casing, creating a hollow, pretty well sealed space.
I am sure they have both been fired because there is the tell-tale dual firing pin strikes of the Henry rifle on both of the inside 44's. As well, their weight is not enough for it to have an intact bullet & powder charge in the case of either being a misfire (dud).
Although, the larger, newer piece does "seem" to weigh more than it should for 2 empty cases alone...... it doesn't weigh enough to include a 44 w/bullet & charge.

Thanks for your thoughts!

I may dig out my digital reloading scale, a 44 rimfire casing and try to match up the other casing with others I have, then see what the weight difference is, if any.

 

[Tejaas]

I've seen an example of one similar found at a Texas Fort Site (Indian Wars) that supposedly contained a single-use portion of pepper or salt, I don't remember.

Me personally I think you have a "Bivouac Boredom" 'item.
I'd leave it as it is, that's how you found it!


~Tejaas~

 

[AugustMoose87]

Another thought... I would try sealing them in a small zip lock bag, and see how they behave in water... If they float, they are most likely empty. If they sink pretty fast, maybe gold in side, and somewhere in between, maybe the salt/pepper or something similar.

 

[azdave]

Thanks for the input gentleman....I think I will do a weight comparison to find out if the newer/larger find has anything in it.
I have LOTS of identical fired Henry casings as well as many fired Spencer casings, so the smaller/older find will be easy.....and I don't think it weighs more than the sum of the 2 casings anyways.
The other one, though, seems heavier than it should...and of course that is the one casing that I will have to match up with another empty in my stash using calipers...of course it has no caliber headstamp......couldn't be that easy. If I can't match it up, That ziplock in water trick may get a try.

 

[Banjoben]

Personally, I'd cut them open. But I'd do it very carefully with a dremel or the like. Split them right in half lengthwise, but try to leave them still stuck inside each other. Then you can see what's in them and then make a neat display with them and let folks that come over see what someone did back then and guess what was in it. No matter what you find it would be neat. But my disclaimer is that I believe I do not have the same level of affection for old ammunition that you do, so I understand your dilemma. Not ever knowing what was in them would drive me crazy after a while.

 

[azdave]

Banjoben, that's what I was thinking too.......a slit on one side with a cut-off wheel on my Dremel.

Well........it looks like that time is getting close.......here are pics of the "weight".

But first, I will share a slightly bizarre scenario. My 9 yo old trusty tesoro Lobo ST has been giving me trouble since before xmas, and has to go back to Prescott for a check/ tune up.
An MD addict can't be without a detector, and the wifes POS Whites just doesn't cut it.....so off I go this morning for 150 mile round trip to the nearest prospecting store to get a "back-up" detector...just a little Tesoro Silver umax.
Anyways, I stopped at a place on the way back that I have hit hard, but is close to home just to try it out.....guess what the umax finds.......a 44 rimfire (Henry) case and the OTHER one that is IDENTICAL (other than a deformed mouth) to the one in question.
HOW WEIRD IS THAT
I needed to pull out a 44 Henry and find a match to the outer casing to do the weight check........and what do I dig up today? Those 2 casings I needed! Soon as the bigger one popped out of the hole, I felt it was the same one...a caliper check after getting home confirmed it.

So here is the weight check..........and as I suspected, there is a difference of 51.5 grains between just TWO empty CASINGS and the "one-inside-the-other" casings.
For perspective, a common 5.56/223 bullet weight is 55 grains, and a common 22 LR bullet weight is 40 grains.....so its definitely not a big difference. But something is in there.
Looks like I may be cutting soon.......Oh, and I decided not to mess with the Spencer (smaller one)....I'm confident it is just the 2 casings.

 

[prospect007]

drill a hole through the top or side to see whats in it. obviously if there is gold in them, there won't be very much, just a few dollars worth.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

As Tjaas said - it was sometimes a method used to carry salt or pepper. But you'd never mash it down to do that.

Rumor is one cylinder was left unloaded (for safety) in the old Colt 1873 and trailhands would roll up a banknote to use to bury them if they expired away from home. Maybe that was a little "safe" or even had a lock of a sweetheart's hair as a keepsake.

Open it! What's one case smashed into another worth, anyway?

 

[AugustMoose87]

Unless I screwed up my calculations somewhere... 51.5 grains of gold would be around $130... And while I don't know exactly how big those cases are, some rough mental visualization makes me think it would take a fair amount salt to get 51.1 grains...

 

[Professor of Engineering]

I hope you find gold inside!

 

[azdave]

Well, I cut a slit with the Dremel, and gently manipulated the 44 Henry casing out.........only to see it stuffed with CLOTH! Suprisingly, it was in good shape and retained its color....I guess it was a good, airtight seal that preserved it for a 120 plus years laying in the remote, high desert mtn's about 3" down.

So, I hoped it was a "plug" of sorts...and the goodies might still be under it. Called the wife over for so she could witness the grand finale...................and the little bit of dirt and unburnt black powder pour out!!!

For those that think "who cares, its just a couple shell casings" that got cut up.....well, that "is" what I'm after.......I don't just stumble around a city park to find this kind of thing...I hike into remote areas in search of history like this, to find the places that history "happened" when this state was still wild and real men tried to survive here.
So yeah, I'm a bit bummed that it didn't have a nugget, diamond or whatever stashed inside...but am more bummed at messing it up. I have tupperware containers full of the early cartridge casings, but that's not the point.
Now I can just wonder about the relevance of some guy putting tightly wadded fabric or whatever it was in there and then forcing them together like that.....probably shear boredom, but who know's.

 

[gordonquixote]

Maybe the were out of ammo for the Spencer and they were tying to make a field bullet with the Henry cartridge and Henry powder for small game and the cloth acted as the patch. Back then you just didn't run over to Bass Pro to pick up ammo on the VISA card.

Totally outlandish I know but that's my only guess.

 

[TheSleeper]

azdave, I think what you have found is totally unique. Ok a couple of fired shell casings, big deal they were fired and dropped. But what you have here is totally unique, what's the story behind it, why did some man jam them together like they were.

Don't be bummed about it, you will find more fired casings in the future, but I seriously doubt you will ever find something as unique as this.
To me this deserves a spot right in the middle of your collection as your most important find.


What you have, has been personalized, not just a casing fired and dropped, this was put together by a man for what ever reason he may have had at the time. Its like finding a three ringer that has been carved on, it makes it more dear as thought was put into it, not just a mindless act of dropping it, or perhaps another slug of lead showing a mushroom effect, was it mushroomed by striking another man, or perhaps a deer or some other beast for food, or protection.

To me, this is a prize.

 

[jeff of pa]

Well, I cut a slit with the Dremel, and gently manipulated the 44 Henry casing out.........only to see it stuffed with CLOTH! Suprisingly, it was in good shape and retained its color....I guess it was a good, airtight seal that preserved it for a 120 plus years laying in the remote, high desert mtn's about 3" down.

So, I hoped it was a "plug" of sorts...and the goodies might still be under it. Called the wife over for so she could witness the grand finale...................and the little bit of dirt and unburnt black powder pour out!!!

For those that think "who cares, its just a couple shell casings" that got cut up.....well, that "is" what I'm after.......I don't just stumble around a city park to find this kind of thing...I hike into remote areas in search of history like this, to find the places that history "happened" when this state was still wild and real men tried to survive here.
So yeah, I'm a bit bummed that it didn't have a nugget, diamond or whatever stashed inside...but am more bummed at messing it up. I have tupperware containers full of the early cartridge casings, but that's not the point.
Now I can just wonder about the relevance of some guy putting tightly wadded fabric or whatever it was in there and then forcing them together like that.....probably shear boredom, but who know's.
View attachment 1103748View attachment 1103749View attachment 1103750

did you check the fabric carefully for a note ?
Or perhaps it's a souvenir of someone's Blood.


I would keep it all & as TheSleeper said, it is still History

Checking it was a Given
No treasure Hunter worth the Title wouldn't

 

[azdave]

I've dissected the fabric and come up with nothing unusual.....Of course I'm saving it all, keeping all involved items in a little zip-lock.

I love plain old cartridges of this era, so of course I find it definitely more interesting than just a random fired and ejected casing. If only these things could talk.

I definitely won't be cutting into the Spencer/44 Henry piece....I'm confident its empty, and I only have a half dozen or so Spencer's with S.A.W. (Sage Ammunition Works) headstamp. Thanks for all the reply's and good hunting!