KGC Fact or Fiction....................

[gollum]

First, a little history about me. This way, you will know where I am coming from. I was raised by my paternal Grandparents in New Orleans, La. My Grandfather owned a couple of New Car Dealerships and a Stable of Tennessee Walking Horses and Sulky Racers. My Grandfather's first name was (dead now) Bedford. He was named after Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest, one of the founders of the Ku Klux Klan. My GGGrandfather was a 1st Lt. Walter R. McChesney of C Company, Kentucky 13th Volunteer Cavalry CSA(AKA Sypert's 13th). He was captured at Marshall, Al in 1864 and rode out the rest of the war in POW Camp (Don't know which one). Growing up, I helped David Duke (former Imperial Wizard of the KKK, and refounder of the Klan in Louisiana in the 70's) campaign for the Louisiana State Senate in 1975 (I put up posters, I was 12 years old). David Duke is a very intelligent and well spoken guy, but when he says all the racist stuff is only in his past, don't believe him. He was a racist, and will remain one until the day he dies (most likely)! I knew Ex-Sheriff Larry Rainey(Lawrence A. Rainey). He was the Sheriff of Neshoba County, Mississippi in 1964 when the three civil rights workers were murdered (See Mississippi Burning). After receiving a Not-Guilty Verdict in the Federal Trial, he moved to New Orleans (actually Metairie), and opened up a neighborhood bar. Now Back to me.....Growing up, I was the most racist, bigoted kid imaginable. Never actually joined the Klan though. Most of my racism stemmed from the fact that I went to Private Schools my whole life, and the only blacks I knew were my mammy (yes, I had a mammy), Hester, and her husband Coler, who kept my grandfather's horses. This is a fine lesson in "What you don't know CAN hurt you!" I graduated High School early and went into the military. OH MY GOD! I had to live with blacks, hispanics, Asians, and gays! CULTURE SHOCK! For a while, I stayed with my kind, but little by little, I began to get to know some of the cooler black guys, and found out they were great to hang out with (they taught me how to play spades and tonk and throw dice ). I became sort of their "Anti-Racism Project" It was then, that I had what alcoholics call a "Moment of Clarity." I thought to myself, "How could I have been so wrong for so long?" Ever since that one moment in 1980, I was a changed man (see what the military does for you?). Now on to the story...........

Growing up around the KKK, I was privy to hear certain aspects of Southern History you just don't get in books. I actually read in a post where somebody said (and I quote) "The REAL reason for the Civil War wasn't for the darkies. It was because the North was jealous of the South's riches!" Find TChimes' post about finding the metal box (Chimes didn't make the statement, that was someone else). This couldn't be farther from the truth. I inherited the two volume set of books "The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government" by Jefferson L. Davis. They were published in 1881 (I believe, I'll have to get them out of storage and see), eight years before he died. These books are recommended reading for anyone wanting to know about the Civil War from the perspective of the President of the Confederacy. I'll post a thread about that at another time.

There was a good amount of money hidden by the fleeing Confederates near the end of the Civil War. Many were killed in the fighting, and many died in POW Camps such as Camp Douglas (Over 6000 dead from disease and mistreatment). Before you say anything, I know the South had Andersonville. There were several bad ones on both sides. In 1866, several former Confederate Soldiers (the highest ranking was General Nathan Bedford Forrest) founded the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.

They got the name from the Greek word "Kyklos" (pronounced "koo-close")which means "Circle" and Clan (Ku Klux Klan). "Knights of the Clan of the Circle" basically. Is it starting to come together now? As of about 1867 there was only one KKK. Composed entirely of former Confederate Soldiers and Southern Sympathizers, their goal was to fight Reconstruction, harass the Carpet Baggers, harass Southern Republicans, and keep the blacks down. As ex-soldiers were joining the ranks, some of them told stories about how soldier buddies in the POW Camps had told them about buried gold before dying, and some of them had first hand knowledge about where some of these treasures and weapons caches were hidden. General Forrest (Who was the first Grand Wizard), decided that general knowledge about secret gold and weapons caches was much too dangerous for the majority of the ranks to know about.

General Forrest formed the Knights of the Golden Circle (KGC) in about 1868 from the groups most trustworthy and rabid anti-union troops. Their purpose was to research, hunt down, dig up, and bring in, any hidden caches of Gold and/or weapons that they could use. They did after all, plan on resurrecting the Confederacy, and they would need a lot of gold and guns to do it.

Supposedly, they were quite successful, and found help anywhere they went in the former Southern States. Their activities were always kept secret, and the locations of reburials were known to VERY FEW.

As far as Jesse and Frank James being members of the KGC, I have no knowledge, but he was a loyal fighter, and a rabid anti-unionist. I doubt it though. He was always too busy running from the law to have the time to research and hunt down hidden caches.

I have read the books about Albert Pike and how the KGC was a Secret Society that started the Civil War. I believe that to be a bunch of crap. There are no memorandum, membership lists, or anything else to even prove that there ever was a KGC in the first place. From what I learned growing up, I believe that the KGC was real, and the fact that there is still a KKK says to me that there might still be a KGC.

Here is how the two names are related:
1. KKK = Knights of the KyKlos (Koo-close, bast**dized to Ku Klux) Clan. "Knights of the Circle Clan"
2. KGC = Knights of the Golden Circle (They were after gold, and they were in the circle).

This is the history as I learned it.


Best of luck-Mike

 

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[grizzly bare]

Mike,
This is one of the best posts I have ever read on TNet. I can definitely identify with your epiphany in the service. I went in as a green as grass Southern boy and came out a changed man.
As far as the KGC, there is so little real information out there that your piece fills in some gaps.
Don't know if any KGC are still out there, seems to me that it's been so long that the newer generations would be less committed. I'm sure that somebody would have dug them up by now.
Thanks for the background sketch. Always interesting to find out about the fascinating folks on here.

grizzly bare

 

[EDDE]

"Camp Douglas (Over 6000 dead from disease and mistreatment)"
which is in chicago near the south side close to the lake i forget the college its very close to(Loyola?)...agreed,not the average yes there is no there isnt blah blah, very well writen i enjoy a fine crafted story/research/personal account such as the above...9 out of 10 only because theres no pictures... i beleive this more then some of the other drivel ive read about this subject......

 

[KGCnewbieseeker]

great info. Id love to read those volumes. im sure their are alot of misleading info with regard to all historical accounts. epecially since all of history is point of view. KGC KKK the masons. some who i think are al connected. i think taking a look at civil war camps and the clues they have to share would be worth the time and effort . thanks for all the info.

 

[EDDE]

wow i thought this thread got toasted a month ago hope maybe to hear more from you gollum ,honest, great account

 

[cryptodave]

Gollum, first I want to say I totally identify with your military background. I grew up in an entirely white county, went to school at an entirely white school, etc etc. My best friend in the military turned out to be a black guy, after some serious rethinking from me of course.

As far as the KGC, I personally never believed in them. Sure I've heard stories about them, but never have I seen any hard evidence pointing in the direction that there is currently this mystical group. I would be pleasantly surprised if there was, because that would mean there are millions buried all over the place, but chances are its not true.... Now, let me give you my theory on what did happen...

Lets rewind your post to the point where you talk about the original KKK. I know the background of the KKK pretty well, I've even done a few research papers on them. I do believe that they were trying to revitalive the confederacy, and I do believe that there was several caches of money and precious items buried and found by them. One thing that is important to remember is that the caches that were worth the absolute most money were more than likely not military in nature, and consisted of personal belongings of towns. There is documented evidence of at least 2 occurances where a town buried all their precious metals and money in hopes the union army would not find it. I believe one of those towns ended up being massacred if memory serves me correct.... It stands to reason that there were more than just 2 of these occurances happen, and that it was probably a regular thing whenever opposing troops began marching into town.
Anyway, that was a slight bit off topic, but I feel that is very important to note that the confederacy was financially dead. There are of course rumors of huge caches being scattered throughout the south, but in my opinion and in my research, there is more than likely no such animal.
I do believe the weapons cache was the most important thing for these early KKK members to find, and I do believe that they did find several of them, and I have no doubt that they found some money also. The problem I believe was lack of participation. The KKK never got big enough in those early days to become a serious threat, and most southern boys just didn't want to go back to war then. Towns were destroyed, families lost and scattered or even worse, dead. They had to rebuild their lives, and with the slaves freed, they had to pay them now to work the land, so times were very tough back then.
What seems like a probable theory to me concerning the KGC is one of two things:
A. Your idea that it was founded as a part of the KKK to look for hidden treasures, in which case I don't think they did very well and were disbanded.
B. A miscommunication of the KKK. I think the mostly likely thing is that people talked about them, but as with all scuttlebutt, it changed names and became something different. Years later it came up in conversation with someone, and viola, the legend of the KGC, and its had treasure hunters digging up the south since.

 

[EDDE]

hmmm healthy doubt i look forward to see further post2 from you 2 not the other crack pots on this one.........

 

[gldhntr]

info book..... isbn #09646846-2-4 '' knights of the golden circle , treason history, sons of liberty, 1864 '' by felix g stidger stidger was a u.s. govt spy who infiltrated the kgc and witnessed against several of their trials in the courts....while not showing every aspect of what was going on it does show alot of info concerning them, their structure, and their intentions....also shows they predated the klan, which was actually an offshoot of the kgc until the klan started getting too heavy handed, in 1869 i believe, at which time the kgc and nathan bedford forrest denounced them, and cut all ''known'' ties to the klan..............also on another thread here i have posted a link to 40 some odd pages of the minutes of a kgc convention held in raliegh n.c. in 1863, which also shows they predated the klan.......gldhntr

 

[gldhntr]

here is the link......... . http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/rbpebib:@FIELD(STATE+@band(north+carolina)):heading=Items+Printed+in+North+Carolina scroll down and click on # 14..................shows actual copy of every page concerning the meeting.................gldhntr

 

[cryptodave]

info book..... isbn #09646846-2-4 '' knights of the golden circle , treason history, sons of liberty, 1864 '' by felix g stidger stidger was a u.s. govt spy who infiltrated the kgc and witnessed against several of their trials in the courts....while not showing every aspect of what was going on it does show alot of info concerning them, their structure, and their intentions....also shows they predated the klan, which was actually an offshoot of the kgc until the klan started getting too heavy handed, in 1869 i believe, at which time the kgc and nathan bedford forrest denounced them, and cut all ''known'' ties to the klan..............also on another thread here i have posted a link to 40 some odd pages of the minutes of a kgc convention held in raliegh n.c. in 1863, which also shows they predated the klan.......gldhntr

gldhntr, you got me interested and I read your link, and then I did some more searching, and found some very interesting things out.
The KGC did exsist, but had absolutely nothing to do with money... Well, hiding money that is. It was originally founded to promote Southern interests and prepare the way for annexation of a "golden circle" of territories in Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean.
The founder was George Bickley, and if you do any research on him, he was a doctor, who many times fled whatever area he was in to escape creditors (this while heading the KGC).
Based on your link, he had grand plans to invade and conquer Mexico, and it seems his plans were thwarted when Texas gave up New Mexico to the Federal government, and then the government acquired CA and AZ. The KGC changed its agenda from annexation to the secessionist movement after Lincoln was elected, and aided the Confederate cause by most of the men joining the army. That in no way signifies that they got ahold of any secret hoard of money, it means that many of its members became regular enlisted men fighting for the cause they were supporting in the KGC, which was the right to own slaves.
The KGC went through several name changes, the sons of liberty being the last, and it seems it dissolved in 1864.

There has been speculation of Jesse James being a member of the KGC, and now that seems to be a very plausable idea. Jesse more than likely was part of a large community in the west who did not want the federal government to control the new states, and more than likely did join one of the local chapters of KGC. I mean, honestly, he certainly would rather have a just a territory after him instead of the federal government and its manpower!

So in conclusion, the KGC did exsist prior to the KKK, by about 12 years. The KGC, operating as the sons of liberty, disbanded in 1864, and the KKK had its first incarnation in 1866.
The KGC was not a racist movement by the way, it was a slave movement. There is a big difference. Slaves were a very important part of the southern way of life back then, and the KGC was trying to thwart the abolishment movement by creating a "golden circle" OUTSIDE of the American jurasdiction, where slavery could continue without fear of the federal government.

 

[cryptodave]

One other thing... reading through the pages, somewhere in the last group, it mentions the Grand Architect of the Universe.... That is the way and manner in which the Freemasons refer to God. Plus, the KGC formed "temples" or "castles", much like the freemasons had temples (now lodges).

My honest opinion of the KGC stands at this: They were another one of the secret organizations that were all the rage back in the mid 1800s, molding itself after the freemasons to an extent (chances are that Bickley was a Freemason). This also opens the door back wide for the theory that Albert Pike was a member of the KGC, however that would go against the masonic teachings of joining a clandistine lodge I would believe... interesting..... The KGC had a larger purpose than the other secret groups, but this idea is still very plausable.
Now tonight when I get home from work I am going to do some real research into this, but for now my opinion stands.

 

[gollum]

wow i thought this thread got toasted a month ago hope maybe to hear more from you gollum ,honest, great account

I'm just as shocked as you are!

Well, here goes back to family history again. Ist Lt. Walter R McChesney was one of those guys in a POW Camp who heard stories from other POWs about them burying weapons and money caches before being captured. Now, do I believe that all those stories were true? Not by a long shot. I could see them lying about something like that to get better treatment as a POW from their captors in the hopes of getting a share after the war ended. I could also see lying about these things after the war to get in good with the folks back home. I mean, if you were the lone survivor of a platoon of Confederates who buried a half million dollars in gold, you would be a very big man in the destitute towns of the South during Reconstruction.

As far as the KGC prior to 1868, the only information I have is what everybody else has seen. I too think it was dead by 1864. I know it was revived by Gen. Forrest in about 1868. There was no KKK in Louisiana for many years until David Duke revived it in the early seventies. More than likely he decided to reuse the name because it already had a certain mysterious and powerful aire about it, and the name also fit in exactly with what he wanted it's mission to be. Once again, there were MANY people of the former Confederate States of America who wanted the South to regain it's former glory. With all those stories of secret buried caches of weapons and gold, he wanted a group of loyal Southerners to investigate and reclaim these caches in the name of the South!

I still don't believe Jesse James was a member (unless in name only, for the PR benefits) of the KGC, because he was always running from the law. He wouldn't have had the time to be doing research required to find secret caches. There is one picture of the James Gang. They were in hiding at the time, and were working in a barrell factory. They took an employee picture, and several of the employees are holding their hands and legs displaying something like gangsigns for the camera. I have the picture, and don't REALLY see the signs. I think another reason that people may believe Jesse James was in the KGC was that while running from the law, he would say or do anything to get the locals to help him with a hideout or suppplies and horses. If he let it be known that he was in the KGC, any Southerner would give him aid because he was still fighting the good fight.

I don't believe that the KGC had anything to do with the Freemasons. Like CryptoDave stated, the Freemasons forbids its' members having anything to do with a clandestine lodge. I do believe that the KGC was a comletely separate organization, but probably shared it's members with the Freemasons. The post 1868 KGC had nothing to do with religion, and was solely for the purpose of rebuilding the South.

That is the reason why you don't hear anything about the KGC after 1864. Prior to this, the KGC wanted some notariety. After the Civil War, their best ally was to everybody believe they KGC no longer existed, so they could do their work without interruption. I forget what movie it was, but there is a great quote "The best trick the devil ever played was making the world believe he didn't exist"

Mike

 

[gldhntr]

while i can not at this time post particulars due to confidentiality issues i can say without a doubt that pike was involved, that they {kgc} were in full swing in 1865, were more involved in the disappearing act of the treasury funds than most realize, and existed at least until the late 1920s....i know of and have seen original documents and pictures that prove it beyond a shadow of doubt..i am not talking about printed books or much seen so called treasure maps............gldhntr

 

[cryptodave]

while i can not at this time post particulars due to confidentiality issues i can say without a doubt that pike was involved, that they {kgc} were in full swing in 1865, were more involved in the disappearing act of the treasury funds than most realize, and existed at least until the late 1920s....i know of and have seen original documents and pictures that prove it beyond a shadow of doubt..i am not talking about printed books or much seen so called treasure maps............gldhntr

And see gld, that is why I have a hard time believing in the whole KGC myth. There is no hard evidence showing that they did what people talk about. Now if I had access to somehting that proved me wrong, then maybe I woul change my mind... And trust me, I'm not one who doesn't believe in treasure legends, because I believe the Beale cipher is real.
Unless anything you have is located in the proximity of the outer banks of NC or tidewater area of VA, then I am not very interested in searching any treasure out, so more than likely your secrets are entirely safe with me. If you could provide some kind of proof to me, I would be more than willing to change my opinion.

 

[Hoss KGC]

Think about this, what is in it for anyone to prove to you that the KGC existed and buried treasure!!! Maybe you'll actually have to hunt down (do research) for yourself. I too started out as a non-believer when I first heard of the KGC 10 years ago...

 

[Springfield]

The "KGC" as we 'know it' today is essentially disinformation fostered by those whose desire is to keep eager souls such as those who read this forum running in endless circles for months, years and lifetimes. Those selling books, maps and expertise are the only ones benefitting from the legends. Despite veiled hints and even stronger claims made by many book writers and forum posters over the years, no significent recoveries have been made. There have been a number recoveries of outlaw loot made (particularly in Oklahoma), but these caches and the clues leading to them have nothing to do with the currently accepted 'KGC', IMHO.

Are the 'KGC carvings' that have been found in abundance in many, many locations genuine? Yes, they were created by persons unknown for two purposes: to mark extremely valuable caches (assumed) and to lead outsiders searching for these caches astray (confirmed). Yes, these clues form brilliant patterns of sacred geometry and contain quite cleverly coded information that lead the searcher to yet more clues. Outsiders (us) will never solve these puzzles - only those in the know can. Do any of you really believe that wealth of this purported magnitude will ever be in jeopardy of being discovered? No, because the keys to recovery are too closely held and in no way can be intuited from carvings found in the field. These keys are not going to surface in old trunks, family bibles, books, magazines or public forums. Think about it.

Having found a number of such carvings myself, with more being located each year, I admit I'm just as curious today as I was 30 years ago when I began searching in earnest. There's something happening, but we don't know what it is, Mr. Jones. I'll keep exploring the canyons while I'm able, but in no way do I believe any of those who claim to know how these puzzles can be solved. The clues always seem to lead to more clues, which isn't a bad thing - it keeps the searcher's mind sharp and his legs in good shape. The people responsible for all this are masters of human psychology and are quite aware that we can be easily brainwashed to believe damned near anything. The recent 'KGC' mania is the TH's version of WMD.

 

[gollum]

The people responsible for all this are masters of human psychology and are quite aware that we can be easily brainwashed to believe damned near anything. The recent 'KGC' mania is the TH's version of WMD.

Oh God, NOT MORE BUSH BASHING! I will only say this one time. This is the TREASURE HUNTING part of this forum. If you want to regurgitate your left-wing spew, go to the POLITICAL FORUMS! And by the way, which WMD are you talking about? Do you mean the WMD that Saddam used to kill a couple hundred thousand Kurds? Did you mean the WMDs that Saddam used against Iran? Were you alluding to the WMDs that Saddam's Former Air Force Chief Staff swears under oath that were sent to Northern Syria before the US Invasion, or did you mean the WMDs that we found about 500 of over the last two years IN IRAQ? I'm confused. I just don't know which WMDs you are referring to.

Mike

 

[gollum]

The "KGC" as we 'know it' today is essentially disinformation fostered by those whose desire is to keep eager souls such as those who read this forum running in endless circles for months, years and lifetimes. Those selling books, maps and expertise are the only ones benefitting from the legends. Despite veiled hints and even stronger claims made by many book writers and forum posters over the years, no significent recoveries have been made. There have been a number recoveries of outlaw loot made (particularly in Oklahoma), but these caches and the clues leading to them have nothing to do with the currently accepted 'KGC', IMHO.

It's good you end your post in "IMHO" For those who don't understand it, it means "In My Humble Opinion". I say this because you make a VERY sweeping and informed sounding statement. It doesn't sound like an opinion. You sound like you are stating fact. I do have one question; When you say "The "KGC" as we 'know it' today is essentially disinformation" Are you talking about the idea that the KGC is alive and well TODAY, or are you talking about the entire idea of the KGC at any point inn time? Because:

1. If you are talking about the KGCs existence in 2006, I would have have to say that I highly doubt it is still around.

2. If you are talking about the KGC ever existing at all, I would have to say you are quite wrong. There is much proof of it's existence prior to 1864, and after 1868, I would believe my family over your supposition any day.

Mike

 

[treasure minder]

Well Mike

i was about to BUSH bash like a MO-FO

I'll let it pass, for i hate arguement

Senator Preston Smith Brooks is my gggGrandaddy

You don't get any closer to the top then that

KGC ?

Ha,, never mind

When formulated disinformation, orchrastrated theatrics,
Manufactured evidence

and a Plethora of Histrionics
is instituted in co-vert operations

you can damned well bet
someone is covering their ass

using your tax dollars to do so.

As for Top Secret documents

It is very well known within certain intel agencies that
i have personally reviewed many detailing many
tresaure anomolies and projects

Being a descendent brought this to me

Being outside the inside

Gave me relief from it.

First thing anyone had best state to maintain
validity,,, is that unless they have personally recovered a KGC treasure
replete with a document authentizing and quatifying that it
is indeed KGC

There remains no evidence as to it being so.

Personally, i have been accused of being anywhere from a C.I.A. operative to DEA agent and above

Hardly is it that people refute that i evidently have a great deal of inside the loop knowledge

Unless they have missed my writtings somehow

but to bona-fide myself is BS

Point is
I can wel state from what I was given as pure documants
KGC, was a formulated disinfo project

It got its propitiation in a Fictional account and the ball
was picked up and ran with.

Naturaly i understand the arguements that arise

as well, naturally
I do not engage them

Knowing
and believing
have for a basis varied avenues
and foundation

that seldom find a common to agree and complete
a format that allows for peaceful solutionary
resultives

Being that as the given proper
I duck out of the maliu


C ya's guys

Rog'

 

[gollum]

• :P
• 
• 

Mike